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Delta Airlines flight from New York's JFK Airport delayed after ultra-Orthodox Jewish passengers refuse to sit next to women

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A Delta Airlines flight from New York's JFK Airport to Israel was delayed by half an hour when a group of ultra-Orthodox Jewish men refused to sit next to female passengers. Delta Flight 468, bound for Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion Airport, was reportedly held up due to several Haredi passengers refusing to to sit in their assigned seats, which were in between two women. (www.dailymail.co.uk) More...

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mpradel
Marcus Pradel 6
Just how did these guys not get kicked off the airplane?

Next time, book side by side first class with your black hat boyfriends..
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744pnf
744pnf 2
How about Delta Air Lines rather than Delta Airlines? Not professional.
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preacher1
preacher1 3
DAL is much more professional, particularly in an aviation forum.
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upchucked
C. WESLEY GRADY 3
Anyone who has ever been near these guys know how badly they smell, so I can't understand anyone wanting to sit next to one of them. They are so used to getting there own way that until someone stands up and says "NO", they will continue to push the issue to everyone's breaking point. Unless they paid for a full fair ticket, which I can guarantee they didn't, if they refuse to sit, they lose their place and deplane and that is the end of their ticket, no refund, no ability (even for $200) to change.
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Bernie20910
Bernie20910 2
I don't know about a ticket to the fair, but it sure sounds like it was a circus.
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chalet
chalet 0
Does not international law require that all passengers must show at the counter a legal certificate attesting that they took 30 minute showers every day for the previous 30 days and cleansed their bodies of all malfunctioning odors by using at least Kreso or better yet a good quality soap LOL!!). Unfortunately that law does not exist, once I had to give up a nice emergency row window seat and take an aile way back in a cramped seat, and you know why.
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Moviela
Ric Wernicke 3
Let them pull that stunt at El Al and they will be hoofing it home on Flatbush Ave moments later.

Delta showed remarkable patience, and ultimately kowtowed to their demands. If the men want to live in the first century, let the travel as those in the first century. Every where Jesus went, he went by foot.
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preacher1
preacher1 7
Well, according to the story, El Al ran into the same thing a few months ago. I am one of the first in defending individual rights but my basic belief is that your rights stop where mine start. Seat selection is a known process in booking any airline ticket. When you don't spend that few extra bucks, you are at the mercy of the computer and must accept what is given. The result of throwing their fit infringed on the rights of and inconvenienced many people. It is a testament to DAL for the patience to accommodate them.
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jkudlick
Jeremy Kudlick 3
Not true! He also rode donkeys and boats. :)
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Moviela
Ric Wernicke 2
Why would he need a boat if he could walk on water?
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ilikerio
ilikerio 2
What do Jews have to do with Jesus?
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preacher1
preacher1 7
Seems to me, if memory is correct, HE WAS ONE.
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ilikerio
ilikerio 2
Ohhhh, I see. I was thinking about how the modern Jews don't accept Him as the Messiah and stuff, so I was kinda confused
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preacher1
preacher1 3
The older ones and most of those in His generation didn't either; hence the New Testament Church, when the gospel went to all.
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ilikerio
ilikerio 3
Right. Lol, just noticed your name is preacher1, thanks for the clarification!
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ExCalbr
Victor Engel 3
Quite a display of ignorance here. I'll comment even though I notice the source website of the article is not the loftiest of news sources.

I see no mention in the article about whether any arrangement was made ahead of time by the Haredi passengers. To them I would point out that the laws forbidding contact between the sexes stem from uncleanliness around the time of menses, and that it extends also to whatever the women touch. So resolving the seating situation doesn't really solve anything the way I see it. They are unclean until evening in any case.

As to the rights of the women, do they really have a right to sit next to a Haredi passenger? I think not. For practical purposes, I'd say there is about a 99.9999% (probably greater) probability that seating can be arranged to avoid the seating issue. Since the Haredi passengers are the ones with the stricter requirements, though, I see that it's their responsibility to ensure appropriate measures have been taken ahead of time. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. The article doesn't mention it.

This was a flight to Israel. I have to believe this is not an infrequent concern. Surely there are policies in place to deal with it.

To people who would suggest driving or walking, go consult your map. There's a wee bit of water in the way for those modes of transportation.
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Moviela
Ric Wernicke 3
My suggestion they walk is tongue-in-cheek, and I am sure you know that.

You are quick to dismiss the rights of others (the women)in favor of those using belief as a Billy club to trample the rights of others. That is Un-American. The founders of The United States who observed their Judo-Christian faiths made it a point to separate Church and State. It was a bold experiment, with no contemporariness peer.

Public transportation is regulated by government. In our case a secular government, and observant practitioner's of any faith have no right to dictate their desires.

Surely there ARE policies in place to deal with it, you sit where directed. If you fail to obey instructions from the crew, you commit an offense, and the secular government can deal with you.

DAL bent over backward until their nose touched the floor behind them this time. Next time they should be offended at the notion that women are somehow "unclean" and send them packing.
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THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
Everyone's beliefs should be respected, but not at the expense of others. Since these guys beliefs are on the extreme and "caveman era" type side, their solution would be to charter an airplane.
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preacher1
preacher1 1
I don't disagree with your research BUT the part about the laws forbidding contact. Is this any kind of contact, not necessarily physical?
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ExCalbr
Victor Engel 1
A discussion on that topic is likely to spawn a debate akin to what abortion, creation vs. evolution, etc. would inspire, so I'd rather simply suggest googling shomer negiah, since that would really be side-tracking this discussion. Suffice it to say there are enough people who observe it that it makes sense to have a plan to deal with it.
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PSBJ
PSBJ 1
Mr. Engel,

Thank you for your calm, rational, and clear-thinking post. Many people post bad responses to things like this that don't do much good. Your post is a breath of fresh air.
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andromeda07
andromeda07 1
Would Delta accommodate a religious sect that required members to not sit next to people of another race, too?
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elbigote
osvaldo colombino 1
Perhaps he was also homosexsual !
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THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
On a side note, surprisingly the Orthodox guys were the second most generous tippers I've ever had flying charter, beaten only by the Saudis...
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pjshield
pjshield 0
The behavior of these Ultra-Orthodox Jews is so similar to their sworn-for-life enemies, the Mooslimes.
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chalet
chalet -4
Why, dump these dumbasses and other punks of other religions (Muslims for instance) who hold some extraordinarily stupid beliefs, and let them ride camels all the way to the desert and NEVER COMEBACK
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ilikerio
ilikerio 8
I think we should put disrespectful people like YOU on camels to the desert to never come back.
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chalet
chalet -2
Disrespectful people are those who forcé upon others their stupid beliefs and customs, so you wanna but a nice strong camel to go back to your country, FYI I have quite a few of them available for sale, but cash only!!! (LOL!)
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ilikerio
ilikerio 2
Enlighten me, how are they forcing their beliefs upon anyone? Particularly me or you, or anyone on FlightAware? They might be weird for making a fuss over something in this case, but most of the time I don't see these people saying "Accept my beliefs or I chop your head off!"
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preacher1
preacher1 2
Gray area, but the women had as much right to sit in their seats as much as these guys did to sit in their's. At that point, all was equal. Where the force part came in was their DEMAND not to sit by them. At that point, DAL had no obligation to do anything but to show them off the plane. DAL wound up with patience trying to accommodate them, and before it was said & done, all pax were inconvenienced. They did not try and convert anyone to their belief but they stood their ground because of that belief and forced DAL into a very uncomfortable position. Had it been another flight crew, they could have very well been left at the gate. DAL yielded their rights in order for these guys to have theirs.
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ExCalbr
Victor Engel 1
Unfortunately, Southwest Airlines doesn't fly to Israel, or the whole thing could have been easily avoided. Changing seats surely seems like a minor request on the grand scheme of things. Had I been on the flight, I'd have volunteered to move if it would have helped with the situation.
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preacher1
preacher1 2
If the women had yielded, it would not have happened either. This was a case of their rights as well. Every pax on that flight had the option of seat selection at the price charged. These guys thought they could just push things further. They got by with it this time, maybe not next time.
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ExCalbr
Victor Engel 0
You don't know that. Sometimes seat selection is trumped by circumstances.
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preacher1
preacher1 3
Well, yeah. I kinda do. I believe the story says that they did not select their seats. It really matter not though. If none of them, men or women, would've paid extra for selection, then DAL had the choice to accommodate them or not.
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chalet
chalet 0
Lets reverse the situation, suppose that some Rabbis and various individuals of that faith were already sitting in their assigned seats and then a few Muslim mullahs, Ayahtollas and assorted individuals of that faith had been assigned seats right next to the first ones and since they did not like it they demanded the airline to shunt the Jewish faith indivituals away..... what then. If people can not act rationally then lets go back to the caves era and settle matters the old fashioned way, by spilling blood all over. Stupid isn't it.
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THRUSTT
THRUSTT 5
Is there a one way gate in the desert that prevents people from coming back?
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